Rumrum31 Says:
I am needing some feedback from any members of AA that are atheist. I am secure in my beliefs and appreciate AA. For me, the two are reconcilable. However, I would like some recovery feedback regarding this issue…and please NO HATE mail.
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August 15, 2007 at 10:55 am |
Rumrum,
Hopefully someone that shares your circumstance will see this and post and respond. In the mean time, I was able to find a few posts that you might find helpful:
http://www.iidb.org/vbb/archive/index.php/t-35952.html
http://www.alcoholics-anonymous.org/en_is_aa_for_you.cfm?PageID=16&SubPage=86
http://atheism.about.com/b/a/079081.htm
http://friendlyatheist.com/2007/05/30/alternatives-to-alcoholics-anonymous/
I hope you are able to prevail against your alcoholism – I have friends that are alcoholics and I know that it is a very difficult struggle. I also know that admitting alcoholism is in itself a very difficult step to recovery. Having taken that step, you have already begun a journey to recovery.
August 17, 2007 at 1:08 am |
What do you need?
August 17, 2007 at 2:43 am |
Well, I really don’t need anything. What I would like is a comparison of what other athiest use as their HP…I mean do just go without, do you use the group, is there some form of philosophy. Just curious. Truly there isn’t that many folks that I met that feel this way. My concept is humanism and the power of the human spirit. Who knows maybe its crap but it works for me…
August 17, 2007 at 6:12 am |
Rumrum, if it works for you it’s not crap. All recovery is based on pragmatism, meaning if it works, use it. Humanism is a good philosophical foundation for your recovery in my opinion IF it leads you to practice respect for yourself and others, a desire for mutual kindness and fairness, and a commitment to honesty. I don’t know if there is a well developed philosophy per se for recovering people who are atheists. We tend to be very independent and idiosyncratic. Our methods for recovery can vary widely. Some need very little support beyond their initial sobering up, while others find that they do better with the regular support of a group such as AA.
I don’t know where you live, but out here in California there are many AA meetings called “We Agnostics” where the 12 steps are followed and the fellowship is there, but the “God stuff” is lighter for those who just cringe at its mention. As you say, many AA members use the group itself as their higher power. Certainly a well-practiced crisis support relationship with a dozen other recovering friends will be far more powerful than one’s own fragile will power.
In general most of the people I have seen who are recovering long-term and living healthy lifestyles are somehow involving other recovering people in their lives. They can know each others games and can lovingly keep each other honest. Recovering people can slip into all sorts of unhealthy behaviors if they isolate themselves. Even if they don’t drink or use, they can fill their lives up with crap.
Rational Recovery and Seculars in Sobriety are two resources you might look into. Click on the link to friendlyatheist that “The Atheist” provided in the first comment above. It’s a thread started by a question similar to yours. About the third comment contains several useful links to more secular-oriented recovery tools.
I hope these suggestions are useful. I’ll be on vacation all next week and often not near internet access, but I’ll check in here when I can to see if you have more questions or things to report. Let us know what you find.
All the best,
Richard Wade
August 18, 2007 at 1:52 pm |
Richard, thank you so much. I certainly appreciate the information. I live in a small Texas town…so we move to a different beat but the drum is the same LOL. Have a geat vacation.
October 9, 2007 at 5:46 am |
Hey Rumrum,
I’ve been sober in AA 5 years and I am still an athiest – and I’m vocal about that too. I had a good description of a higher power from my (then) sponsor which she called “God” but I don’t and it works for me:
It’s the feeling I get in my gut that everything will be ok – no matter what other people think and no matter what happens to me and the other feeling that I get when I am truly honest and open with another person – the love that is shared between us in a very human way
To get that feeling did take time and effort on my part but it did happen, and yes I have been ok – not marvellous – but ok. I’ve even had to go into the psych ward for treatment for my other depressive illness and I have been ok and not had to drink.
this is of course only part of how I have worked the program as an athiest – I haven’t got time or space here to go into how I did the steps etc but if you need more info email me on nodrog@tpg.com.au
October 13, 2007 at 1:49 pm |
I’ve been sober for 12 years, had an un-spiritual awakening about three years ago. After a long struggle with the spiritual stuff I gave in and declared myself an atheist. I feel the honesty with myself and others has helped me a great deal. I have only heard two other people openly share similar views. I don’t have any HP as such. I cultivate honesty with myself and about myself. My own theory of life is that if I behave rudely, selfishly, contemptuously, dishonestly etc with other people, I shouldn’t be surprised if I find people behaving in a similar way towards me.
Probably the most significant change in my own quality of life came from reading Dr. Seligman’s books Authentic Happiness and Learned Optimism. I don’t usually go in for self help books, finding them head-in-the-clouds nonsense, but Dr. Seligman is the real thing — a proper academic who actually researched and measures happiness and the causes of happiness. He has an excellent web site at http://www.authentichappiness.sas.upenn.edu/
April 17, 2008 at 12:26 am |
“The Virtue of Selfishness” by Ayn Rand. I am sober, I am disabled with Lyme disease, I am in a lot of pain, I do’nt drink. I disagree with almost everything I hear in AA. I go to drink coffee.
July 19, 2008 at 5:04 am |
I have been sober 20 years in AA and love it dearly. I diligently looked into the question of a higher power for my first 12 years in the program. I studied a lot of philosophy and theology, but I was starting to think I could never come to a confident conclusion, that I would always be an agnostic.
Finally, my research took me to Ayn Rand’s philosophy (Objectivism) and that made all the difference. My doubts are gone. I am a convinced atheist.
The first Objectivist presentation I discovered was an audiotape of a lecture by Harry Binswanger titled “Psychoepistemology.” I found it instructive, and sought more Objectivist materials to learn from. The philosophy proved to be a gold mine.
Another good recording for beginners is “Foundations of Knowledge” by David Kelley.
Another good starting point is the West Point commencement address by Ayn Rand herself titled “Philosophy, Who Needs It?” It’s available in print.
If those stimulate your interest, start in on the works of Leonard Peikoff, who is Ayn Rand’s designated intellectual heir.
Miss Rand got a lot of things right that no philosopher has ever gotten right before, and you don’t have to e a professional philosopher to understand her main ideas.
I still attend a ton of AA meetings. I mention my atheism when it is relevant to the topic of discussion, and always get thanked for that afterward by other atheists who prefer to remain silent about it. The religious people don’t give me any flak at all. They just want me to stay sober, and we are doing that together, harmoniously.
I currently sponsor two Christians, one Jew, two agnostics and two unaffiliated believers. They all know where I stand, but I respect their choices and we have no problem going through the steps, traditions and concepts together.
You are definitely not alone. Thanks for starting the thread.
July 29, 2008 at 10:49 pm |
Reality is my higher power.
The reality that the party is over. The reality that I used up my life-time ration. The reality that drinking doesn’t work for me any longer – if it ever did.
If recalling the last drunk doesn’t work to keep from “picking up”; reflecting on lame episodes further back (the ones’ that I can remember) helps “keep the plug in the jug”.
BTW – in my eleven months and two weeks sober: those that are most vocal at meetings about their christian god, that they believed in all along, are the ones that “slip” the most; and, the only other person from my rehab group last year that is still sober is one of the other (we three) atheists.
July 29, 2008 at 11:00 pm |
Heathen,
That’s an awesome testimonial for the power of reality. Congrats on your success and to the other atheist as well! By the way, since AA requires you to acknowledge a “higher power”, I think that citing “reality” as your higher power was a very creative way of meeting the demand without compromising your intellectual honesty – while still being able to take advantage of the helpful parts of the program. Kudos for that too.
July 31, 2008 at 1:15 am |
I am so sincerely happy for you, Heathen.
February 28, 2009 at 11:50 am |
Thank you so much for this thread. I have been sober for 31 years in AA. I am an atheist. Recently I have really been having a problem with the assumption I hear at meetings about God. I am going through a tough time with my mother’s health, my father’s death, and the economy. Someone managed to comment that “God won’t give you anything you can’t handle” and I just lost it. What an inane platitude. I am a great follower of Ayn Rand and am going to follow up on the suggested readings.
I am thinking I have to find a new group to join to stay sober because living in the heartland of Colorado the thinking is not as progressive as NY where I got sober.
It concerns me not to have the support group. I’ve seen the failure rate when you don’t go to meetings. Any suggestions? Maybe there’s an online blog where I can go for support instead of going to meetings where I hear stupid comments about God getting you through anything. I don’t think Daniel Pearl “got through” being beheaded, among other examples of things “God” gave someone which they couldn’t handle. I’m angry about this, yes, because it just feels like another opitate to suppress really dealing with reality. As Karl Marx said, religion is the opiate of the masses.
Your higher power can be so many other things. The basic goodness of people, the power of the forces of good in the universe.
August 12, 2009 at 9:21 pm |
Happy to see this:
“God won’t give you anything you can’t handle” and I just lost it. What an inane platitude.
Other empty slogans:
Everything happens for a reason.
Everything works out for the best.
Coincidences are God being anonymous.
Can you imagine telling the chimp-attack lady that “everything happens for a reason”? Or the tsunami victims that God knows what he’s doing?
People will torture logic to comfort themselves.
February 28, 2009 at 10:56 pm |
Donna,
31 years is an incredible accomplishment – my hat’s off to you!!
Not having personal experience with chemical addiction, take what I am about to say with a grain of salt – maybe run it past some others you trust who do have some personal experience. That said, my advice is to stay in the group that you are currently in until you find another group that you like better. I say this because if I were in your place, I think I would prefer to be offended by inane religious platitudes (and I have had plenty of first-hand experience with that) than to blow 31 years of sobriety. DO look around at other groups, DON’T put yourself in the precarious position of not having group support while you are looking.
If you do find a group that doesn’t foist religious views on its members, would you please post what you find? I’ve seen this question asked quite a few times and I wish I had some references to pass on.
By the way, I’m angry about the comments too. Those jackasses are threatening the sobriety of others (which translates to a threat to family life, job, and even life itself sometimes) by alienating them from the group.
March 4, 2009 at 4:48 am |
I’ve got a little over a year in NA and I am about as hardline athesist as they come.
I’ve learned, you are going to have some people who try to shove the religious aspect down your throat. but heck that’s life, and sometimes you have to take what applies to you and leave the rest. I know they mean good and that’s all that matters. I’m not so thin skinned about my beliefes where I can’t tolorate christans/overly religous people doing what they do.
now if they start saying things like, this one guy in a meeting last month said that you will relaspse if you don’t find jesus christ, and he had like 40 years, I got up and walked out. Not only is that not true, that goes against the 12 traditions.
I work the steps, and all I know is damnit I have not used in over a year. I don’t try to get intot he overly technial aspects of it all, it works for me.
If there were other groups as large as AA / NA I would jump at the opprotunity to attned them but you have to do what you have to do
March 4, 2009 at 2:07 pm |
Thanks for your input on this, brandon. Welcome to the blog!
March 11, 2009 at 4:51 pm |
I started off as an agnostic and developed into an atheist. I no longer struggle or have any conflict with my beliefs. In fact my tone of sobriety got better once I acknowleged them.
I have shared about my atheism in AA and been told its denial and ego. All of which, are the downfall of the addict, of course. At the end of the day, its all about what type of recovery you want, and this suits me. My Higher Power is all about doing the right thing and behaving as well as changing the way I think.
I was told by an ex-sponsor that if I didnt believe in God I would drink again. How irresponsible is that?
For me recovery is all about personal change and taking responsibility for myself. I think that in someways the powerlessness/hand over to God/ disease/sick person model of “recovery” can set people up for a relapse. Thanks to all for your imput-its been uplifting. If anyone is interested look at SMART RECOVERY. It has a web site.
March 12, 2009 at 1:05 am |
Heather,
Welcome to the blog and thanks for weighing in on this. The Smart Recovery site looks good. Do you have any first-hand experience with Smart Recovery and would you recommend it over AA for atheists (or even for believers perhaps)? Or do you think AA is the way to go?
August 10, 2009 at 7:43 pm |
Apologies for this late reply. Yes I do have experience of SMART.It is an excellent opportunity and place to think about how to give recovery another angle or indeed empower it. In fact I know of individuals who have walked out of 12 Step Treatment Centres and gone into SMART and have never looked back. My experience was very positive and now I know that there are many ways to recover. All the answers do not lie in the rooms of AA or with a belief in God. It is akin to a voodoo curse in that it will work if you believe it.
SMART helps individuals look at stuff differently and can offer everyone something atheists and believers alike. Also it is not incompatable with with traditional 12 step recovery.
As for is AA the only way to go? No its not. But for me the key has been this
1.You have to be ready (to recover)
2.You have to want it (recovery)
3.You have to go and get it for yourself. However that may be. Its up to you.
August 10, 2009 at 9:48 pm
Heather, no worries – thanks for sharing the additional info on SMART. I hope it helps someone out there who may need an alternative to AA!
March 17, 2009 at 4:55 pm |
Hi I’m Wendy and I’m an alcoholic. I will have eight years of sobriety on the 23 of this month. I must say that it is refreshing to read this thread. I am doing research for a five minute presentation on whether there is a need for a pamphlet or literature addressed to the Atheist or Agnostic. It has been discussed by the groups, the Trustees Lit. Committee, and the Conference Committee on Literature dating back to 1979. It has obviously been found that there is not a need, and that of course is decided by the groups, but this has been eye opening for me. Especially the concept of reality being a power greater than myself. Thank you!
March 19, 2009 at 11:53 am |
Wendy,
Thanks for your post and welcome! Congrats on your long sobriety!! I’d love to see the product of your research if you would care to post a link here (or send it by email if you don’t want to make it public yet). Is this independent research or is it sponsored by a school or some other organization? Just curious.
By the way, are you looking at whether atheists & agnostics need the pamphlet, or whether theists need the pamphlet to better understand the atheists & agnostics among them?
March 19, 2009 at 5:40 pm |
Exactly, on your last question, it started with the question as to whether or not there is a need for atheists and agnostics, but the result thus far, has been the misunderstanding even I have had and what clarity and compassion and inclusiveness I feel discovering ideas outside my scope, and the need seems to be for “the believer”, to create a better unity, to enlighten, to stay open to new ideas.
April 12, 2009 at 1:46 am |
Alcoholics can get sober without god, since there is none. Bill was wrong about self-will; but we must direct our will toward what keeps us sober. A higher power must necessarily be something that exists, or it is no power at all. This is a support group for atheists in Alcoholics Anonymous.
August 28, 2009 at 3:14 pm |
You’re right, but AA doesn’t claim that God has to exist to get sober. The way I read the Big Book, you only have to believe He does. This maneuver completely discards any concern for truth. It’s the ultimate pragmatism, with reason utterly sacrificed.
We hear it all the time in meetings. Your God can be a doorknob. There is a God and you’re not It. Choose any God you like.
I’ve said in meetings that the accuracy of our belief can not matter, because people of conflicting beliefs get sober in AA. Someone has to be wrong, but they all stay sober.
The spiritual hoop in AA is so wide it doesn’t really exist. We don’t need to worry about what, or whether, we believe anything. Deeds, not creeds.
May 10, 2009 at 3:35 pm |
This has been a very enlightening thread. I don’t know what I am – aetheist, agnostic, etc. All I know is that I am not god. I am 4 years sober, May 2, go sober in NYC and moved to Miami a year ago. It has been tough. The meetings closest to me, in South Beach, seem to be overrun with religious freaks. I have no problem with your decision to believe in god but do have a problem when you decide I need god. I have had a great 4 years without god. My sober friends in NYC all believe in god but would NEVER tell me what to believe. But here in Miami? I heard a woman from the chairpersons seat say “This is a god program and if you do not believe that then you didn’t get drunk enough.” What infuriated me was the fact she did not say “This is my opinion” or “This is how I got sober.” It was as tho she knew for a fact for everybody how it worked. What about the 3rd tradition? The only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking. Period. Not qualifiers, no means tests, no fealty oats. Nothing. Anyone in the Miami area know of other AAs believers or not who will accept my right to not believe? Thanks again for this thread and for all who shared. I believe I am sober today because of AA not in spite of it but want to stay sober and have a sober support network.
May 12, 2009 at 1:02 pm |
Congrats on your 4-year sobriety, Christine!! There is definitely a more militant Christianity in the South. It’s adherents are bent on “saving your sole”, even if it kills you in the process (or in this case, endangers your sobriety). This sounds serious. Have you considered finding another group even if it’s not as close? Or even moving if it comes to that extreme? This is just my opinion based on your one post (and I have no personal experience with alcoholism to draw upon), but it sounds to me like you are at a pretty high risk where you are.
May 28, 2009 at 9:06 pm |
Thanks to everyone that shared their views.
I am an atheist in recovery. I attended a meeting today (my home group) that focused entirely on the grace of god or hp. I felt that I was at church not an AA meeting. I left with a huge resentment. I am quite vocal about my non belief, and have had other similar thinking members share their appreciation for my candor. However, I have witnessed other non-believers being treated dismissively or rudely by chair persons.
This particular meeting closes with the Lords Prayer, which is clearly Christian, and in my opinion inappropriate. I say the Serenity Prayer instead.
I need AA and typically get a lot out of meetings, but the emphasis on god can be alienating and annoying. According to the traditions AA is not affiliated with any religion, etc. etc. Hypocracy abounds in life, and AA is no exception. Since there is no viable alternative at this time I will try to live with it and speak out when necessary.
July 17, 2009 at 6:21 pm |
I am an atheist and left the rooms of AA about 12 years ago.I have remained sober through all the challenges of my life.How? I used the sobriety I desired as my goal if you wish my higher power.
I found the emphasis on the spirtual became intolerable I also refuse to pray so I end up being unhelpful to the newcomer.After all who needs to witness dissent when your drowning.
I still remain in touch with some AA friends and help others when I can.I stay sober on the same daily basis as many others but just as a simple human.
July 21, 2009 at 6:18 pm |
Lezlie,
I feel for you – hang in there. Continue being vocal about your beliefs to maintain your piece of mind. But do what you gotta do to stay sober.
Trevor,
Very inspiring!! And good advice!
July 21, 2009 at 8:03 pm |
Twenty or so years ago when my ex-husband was in AA, we were told that those in AA who don’t choose to turn their life over to a HP statistically don’t do as well and relapse because addiction is a problem with self control. They said people who don’t accept a HP still believe they can “will” themselves to get better. They recommended that if you can’t believe in a “god” you can believe in a “tree” in your yard, or anything outside of yourself for that step. Have you all heard this commented in AA? Has it been revised over the years and are Atheist’s in AA seeing more success with their recovery based on the diversity and inclusion of different groups in our society in general? Just curious.
August 28, 2009 at 1:39 pm |
It’s a tough road sometimes at one point I lived in a very theistic part of the country, (Richmond, VA), and found a lot of well-meaning theists that could not give me advice that made sense, even sometimes being rude or mean. As a result, I moved to a place where there is a little more religious tolerance, (MN), and LOVE it.
I guess the pilgrims and I share something after all.
The term, “take what you want and leave the rest”, was a big part of my life before I moved. I had to literally accept that some of my AA advisors were wrong… not a good habit to get into.
I think one of the big topics that is easy to explain in a theist context is the idea that I do the work, God does the results. This works in atheism as well but it sounds much less elegant, it’s more like, do the next right thing and be happy with any outcome. I would much rather believe that god is planning something big later. Unfortunately, it’s not true.
I struggled with figuring out my belief system for years and still have trouble with it sometimes but the things I do believe in are:
1. If I pray, things are better, (even if it’s only in my head)
2. If I do the next right thing, everything will work out
3. I am only responsible for the action, not the result
As far as defining my H.P… I found it to be detrimental to my spiritual condition. I leave that alone altogether, ACTION is the key, not thought.
To be a good A.A. I have to:
1. Pray
2. Go to meetings
3. Work steps to the best of my ability
4. Be of service
5. Have a sponsor and sponsees
6. Be willing to do things that
I don’t want to do
7. Stop acting like god
That’s it..
August 29, 2009 at 10:33 am |
Hi Andrew. Interesting perspective. And a big congrats for doing what you had to do to stay sober! What you would think of these steps:
1. If I pray, things are better, (even if it’s only in my head) I’ll leave this one untouched – if it makes things seem better, do it!
2. I am responsible for the doing the next right thing – regardless of the result. That is because if I do the next right thing, things stand a MUCH better chance of working out than if I don’t.
3. I AM responsible for the result, but ONLY to the extent that I can affect it by doing the next right thing. Sometimes “shit happens” even if I do the right thing. (this is really just a restatement of #2)
August 29, 2009 at 9:33 pm |
Thank you so very much to all. I am currently in a rehabilitation center with mandatory AA, NA, CA, etc. meetings (27 days sober today), and was struggling a great deal with the imposition of god being necessary for my recovery. Y’all have given me the strength and hope i needed to happily continue the fight. Its euphoric to feel amongst a common cause and i was beginning to think that i was all alone in this. I will certainly continue to keep in contact with people of my like mind for that seems to be the greatest catalyst to my sobriety. Im ready again to take on the world with enthusiasm.
Sincerely,
Rejuvenated Hank
August 29, 2009 at 9:57 pm |
Great to hear, Hank. We KNOW belief in supernatural stuff isn’t necessary for recovery. There are millions of sober AAs. Some of them believe opposing things. They can’t all be right, but they’re sober.
The essential element seems to be that we should not be our own God. We should seek to be of service, seek advice and not blindly follow our lower nature.
Don’t let anyone keep you out of AA. You are the reason we’re here.
August 30, 2009 at 10:31 am |
Congrats on the sobriety, Hank!! Whatever you are doing sounds like it is working – don’t stop!
August 30, 2009 at 10:35 am |
I found this list of recovery programs on Wikipedia, several of which are secular. Does anyone have any experience with any of the secular ones?
September 5, 2009 at 4:38 am |
Joseph Campbell said, “I have faith in my own life experiences.” I am an atheist and I believe you learn about yourself through your relationships and experiences with other people. It seems the more religion someone has the less faith they have in their fellow human beings. Doing good for others. Simple things like writing thanks you notes or calling and old friend — is the best thing for me to do.
I have 21 years of sobriety and I worked the steps. I just substituted “My Future Self” for “My Higher Power”
October 1, 2009 at 12:53 pm |
I originally found recovery from substance abuse in AA and NA in my home state of Oregon back in ‘93. I gravitated to the AA group because I felt that my sobriety was threatened by the people I met in the NA groups, especially in the beginning when I felt very fragile. I struggled mightily with dealing with god concept, reading the big book didn’t help because it basically said you had to accept god, with the capital ‘G’. No way around it. What helped me was something I heard in a therapy group I was in at the time: whatever god might be, it’s not you. It’s not you that makes the sun come up in the morning, and no matter how hard you try it’s not you that makes things come out the way that they do. This made sense to me because I was super-controlling, trying to manage the unmanageable. It gave my poor mind a way out. I knew that if I could find a chink like the god concept I would use it as a way to undermine my sobriety, so I grabbed onto that concept and it kept me clean and sober.
When I relapsed it was because I moved to the east coast and stopped going to meetings. Without the group interaction and service I fell out of recovery. Several years later (2006) I started trying to drink like a gentleman, and eventually wound up doing the drugs also. After trying to get clean again by myself and failing earlier this year, I knew I had to get back to AA meetings, so I started going to as many I as could.
Now, I moved from Oregon to Atlanta, GA. You probably couldn’t find more opposite cultures than if I had moved from San Francisco. The AA meetings are full of god talk, people mentioning “god shots”, the lord’s prayer at the end of every meeting, etc. I find all that pretty repulsive, but if I want to get clean I have to suspend judgment for now. I only have 7 days clean at this point and I don’t need to derail. I will take the time to explore other groups in the area, but I will also start talking more about what works for me in the whole higher power thing. I’m an atheist. I don’t see the point of magical mystery mechanisms. That’s not ego – that’s pragmatism. If it was ego I’d be telling people that they’re wrong, but obviously it works for them, and who the heck am I to say otherwise. All I know is that it doesn’t work that way for me.
This forum has been very helpful to me to help form some of my thoughts (like I said, it’s only been a week so I’m a bit fuzzy), and to feel that I am far from alone – my own little AA meeting this morning, if you will. And there it is – right in front of me. My higher power is not what’s inside of me, it’s what’s all around me. How I interact with what’s around me is how I stay clean and sober. I don’t need to worship it – I just need to live within it and not within me/my own head.
Atheist, your 3 points (or really 2 points plus one clarifying point ;) ) seem like a good start and I thank you for expressing them here.
Thank you all for your comments and a really good forum.
October 5, 2009 at 10:12 am |
This is the best explanation of a “higher power” that I’ve ever heard! It’s definitely the first one that made sense to me – “whatever god might be, it’s not you.” I like it! We’re not in absolute control of the outcome, but we are absolutely responsible for our own actions.
October 2, 2009 at 12:24 am |
I’m going to my first AA meeting tomorrow. I’m 13 days sober fresh out of detox and still in group sessions at the hospital as an outpatient.
I have been struggling with the god references. I know the higher power is not supposed to be yourself but I liked Samuel Upchurch’s “future self”. god did not create man, man created god which makes man a higher power than god.
But now I just had another idea. It was mentioned that “It’s not you that makes the Sun come up in the morning”. Well the Sun doesn’t come up, the earth spins to make it look that way. Without the Sun there would be no atmosphere and no life on Earth.
I think I will use the Sun as my higher power.
October 2, 2009 at 2:33 pm |
Congrats on getting sober, it’s really much better in the long run.
My experience with being a newly sober AA atheist was not really that much fun. Part of it was that I was in a god-fearing city, (surrounded by closed minded folks), I moved to Minneapolis and found it to be MUCH easier to talk about my lack of supernatural beliefs.
You will find a TON of understanding people on the web and can find help easily. I am available for sponsorship if you need someone, (moving to Maryland in a couple months). I have 8+years without a drink and have not killed anyone lately. You can get me at andrewk at glideout dot com.
As far as the Sun, I have found esoteric HP ideas to be an unhelpful way of appeasing the godders, I literally had to stop thinking and start doing. I pray in the mornings because they tell me to and I found my life to be better when I do. I go to meetings, work steps, talk to my sponsor, talk to my sponsees, admit when I am wrong (sometimes) and do servie work.
I know it sounds like an easy way to get indoctrinated into a religion, (which is the type of thing I have always prided myself on not doing), but at some point I need to be willing to do something I don’t want to do.. that is the key.
I have been able to make it this far without praising Jesus or speaking in tounges, but if I did.. who gives a crap, it’s better than sleeping in urine and vomit.
~Andrew
October 2, 2009 at 8:59 pm |
It is impolite to talk out loud about these things in meetings, so this is a welcome tonic for me. Thanks, everyone.
I find this fascinating: If you can choose your own conception of God, then truth claims go out the window. This is an open secret in AA. It means that the Higher Power business is a trick and/or a placebo. Anyone who thinks it through can see that AA’s formulation of HP says nothing about whether there is an actual, sentient Being who is helping you. Here’s why:
All beliefs imply that opposing beliefs are untrue. Let’s say your HP, Jesus, helps you stay sober. Another guy believes in an impersonal, deist, Ultimate Cause who takes no personal interest in human affairs. They can’t both be right, but they are both sober.
Another guy believes Allah keeps him sober and another guy thinks Vishnu keeps him sober. Another stays sober on good vibes from vortexes in Mother Earth. All sober, all deluded, all good AAs.
This shows that the content of your belief in a Higher Power makes no difference. You can even be an atheist, as long as you are not your own God.
I marvel at the blissful glare I see in people’s eyes when they extol AA saying, “Isn’t it wonderful that we can all believe whatever we want and stay sober”. I suppose it’s a good thing, but it means that you’re probably fooling yourself. That’s a small price to pay to stay sober, I’ll agree, but there is a way to get sober, have a Higher Power and not fool yourself. Give up supernatural claptrap and rely on the wisdom of the group.
October 5, 2009 at 11:26 am |
I agree that the beliefs are mutually exclusive – if one belief is right then the others must be wrong. But the mutually-exclusive beliefs seem to have something in common which remains true regardless of the belief per se: that you can’t have absolute control – something “larger than you” does, whether that something is God or the nature of the universe. I think this can help in one’s struggle for sobriety (and perhaps it can help in other struggles) – you can accept absolute responsibility for your actions without being absolutely responsible for the outcome for which you don’t have absolute control. As it relates to the 12-step program, the most that can be expected of you is that you choose not to drink right now, and that’s what you are responsible for – no more and no less.
I’m not an alcoholic so I’m not speaking from personal experience, and I might well be all wet on this – any thoughts from anyone who can speak from experience?
October 5, 2009 at 9:43 pm
I’m with you on the “you can’t have absolute control” part, but accepting that “something larger than you does” was the part I had trouble with. I reject the idea that there is control out there. I am more on the chaos side of things, but not really sure, nor do I care anymore. I think the idea of not being responsible for the outcome works either way and is the important part for AA.
The reality is, as much as I may disagree with the fundamental ideas about an HP with plans, opinions and wishes… AA works. I tried a bunch of other things and they did not work, so I had to figure out how to either reconcile my lack of belief or simply learn to ignore it. I was not smart enough to do the former, I chose to ignore it and just do what I’m told.
October 3, 2009 at 2:10 am |
I like the wisdom of the group, it is a little dependant on the quality of the group though. I’ve been in meetings where sleeping with a newcomer was not challenged.
If you find yourself in a good, happy joyous and free meeting with long term sobriety, WOG works great!
It took me a loooong time to get it straight, immersing myself in service to others really helped me get through.
October 4, 2009 at 9:03 am |
FYI.There is a very interesting book called One Journey Many Roads: Moving Beyond The Twelve Steps by Charlotte Davis KASLS. It may help someone, who, like me was clean and sober for a good period of time, but still felt like hell. I dont want to open a debate about anything to do with step work/sponsorship and the correct/incorrect use of them, becuse its irrelevant and often unhelpful. I am just posting this as it may help (women particularly). It explores concepts of spirituality in a very enlightening way.
October 8, 2009 at 6:42 am |
Having been a “deep thinker” about god and the universe took me from religion to atheism, then back to religion, then to spirituality, and then to agnosticism. In my dualistic view a person could only be right or wrong on the subject of god, and I thought it was my job to figure the whole thing out!
Then, after emerging from treatment from alcoholism, I needed something to keep me sober, so I tried AA. I panicked over the “god stuff” quite a bit at first. I still get somewhat annoyed when I hear someone promote their own ideas of god in disrespect of the traditions and tolerance which AA should try to promote.
However I, too, had to become tolerant of those with whom I disagreed. My higher power remains without definition, but if I tried to describe it, it would begin with me admitting that I certainly was not god, or even “a” god, and it was NOT MY JOB to solve the whole “god or no god” question!
I began to draw strength in the fact that there existed people and things other than myself which could help me achieve and maintain sobriety and live a happy life. In AA, I was free to choose the things that helped and discard those that didn’t, including other people’s belief in and conception of god.
October 17, 2009 at 7:56 pm |
I am an atheist, and have been for many years. If I make it until the end of this month, I’ll have 25 years of continuous sobriety. I spent the first five years of it active in AA and the last 20 on my own. I’d recommend AA to anyone trying to sober up.
Whatever it is, it’s better than being drunk.
After sobering up, one’s mind is clear enough to think for oneself. Until then, even a belief in an invisible friend is better than the pain of active alcoholism.
Trust me. I’ve been there.
October 18, 2009 at 11:18 pm |
I’m really interested in whether beliefs are true. Apart from their utility, benefits or harmfulness, why does it seem to matter so little whether religious beliefs are true, that is, supported by evidence?
It seems that most people are not scientific thinkers, and even if they are, they are not philosophical naturalists. That is, they don’t have a purely naturalistic worldview, that they include elements of the supernatural. This is partly due to the fact that science reveals uncomfortable facts about being human.
But most adults I know consider accepting facts simply a part of growing up. They disdain people who put their heads in the sand. They don’t consider themselves to be superstitious. In the recovery community, this is often memorized in treatment:
“Sanity is reality. Reality is seeing things as they really are and acting appropriately.”
This is key, because addiction is all about denial. Understanding and accepting the facts of being an alcoholic are crucial to recovery.
Patients are also taught the Serenity Prayer, which counsels acceptance as the most serene way to live in reality. We all know that reality includes many objectionable things. If we fight or deny them, we are in a constant state of friction, which is not conducive to comfortable sobriety.
Good advice, but it’s followed by the suggestion to believe in a Higher Power of their understanding and practice relying on it for guidance, in place of their flawed instincts, fears and lower drives. This “God as we understand Him” is left wide open. It can be the group, the Steps or anything other than our unaided intellect and will. It’s wide enough that people of all types can get on board. They aren’t required to believe anything in particular, just that they can’t recover by themselves.
This freedom is a key element in reaching the still-defiant alcoholic or addict. Many of us would refuse to attend AA if there was a creed or dogma that had to be followed. So, it’s a trick, but a trick that works.
In practice, though, this leeway has an interesting effect. People pick and choose or invent their own philosophy/religion/mythology that suits them. It seems to work, and whether it’s true or supported by evidence is rarely discussed. Some elder AAs view it as a trick to get the newcomer to try spiritual activity. Then, when they see themselves sober for a year and on a completely different footing in life, they often have a spiritual awakening in hindsight. Step 12 starts this way: “Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps..”. It is common for people to then identify the source of this newfound power to be God.
But AAs rarely compare notes about the specifics of their beliefs. If they do, they have a hyper-tolerant, anything-goes attitude. “I can believe whatever I want. And so can you.” They all use the word “God” and credit it for their recovery. But we know that many of them believe things that are incompatible. It’s not an issue, because their beliefs are personal. But now the issue of whether their beliefs are true is left completely out of the picture. No one cares, because the practical, lifesaving problem of recovery has been addressed. The content of their belief is completely unimportant.
This principle is raised to its extreme in some New Age thinking. Humans are co-creators with God, and mere thinking brings things into reality. It is thus vital that we make good choices about our thoughts. Dale Carnegie and Norman Vincent Peale preached a less airy version of this 50 years ago.
When Bush was re-elected, I realized millions of people seemed to live in a different reality than I did. How could good people, looking at the same facts, reach such different conclusions? The answer is they weren’t using a scientific worldview to come to a unified, consensus view of reality. They believed all sorts of stuff. It was a free-for-all. This “right to believe whatever I want” is fiercely defended. The cost of such a right is very high. Our beliefs ought to conform to the real world, particularly when you are the President.
I find this constraint is recognized by a minority of people. While not usually enunciated overtly, when you pin down a believer, they proclaim their right to believe whatever they want. They often say that nothing, absolutely nothing, can change their mind, as if that is laudable.
We die. There is abundant evidence from Alzheimer’s and other neurological patients that when the brain stops working, our personalities end. There is no good reason to believe in a soul or to think we can survive the death of our brains and bodies. If we are to practice the acceptance suggested in the Serenity Prayer, then sooner or later, we have to confront this fact. Believing in an afterlife is the opposite of acceptance.
It takes courage to live in a reality where we live once and die. Where our children and loved ones can get sick or in an accident and be taken from us at any time.
Sanity is reality. I think most of religion is an attempt to live in a world other than the real one. I’m compassionate toward believers, because I know the fear of being human. But my recovery walk has given me a commitment to living in reality.
People behave as if they are addicted to their beliefs.
November 9, 2009 at 4:19 am |
Hello, I had no idea this post was continuing. I am the original poster of the question.
For an update, I have been sober now for 3 1/2 years… and yes, still an atheist.
I am comfortable still with my viewpoint and beliefs and yes, there have been a couple more come of the “closet”
Thanks all for posting such good information